What Difference in Pitch when going to Stainless Steel?

behavin

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UK - England

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isles of scilly

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Still Miss behavin

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Ribcraft

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6m +

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250 suzuki

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can only comment on my own experiance:

had a twin delta with dt 65's and changed from the standard suzuki alloy props which were i seem to remember 16" pitch to two solas stainless props sent from steel development as a direct replacement.
The engines overrevved massively at wot compared to on the alloys (measured on rpm gauges) so i sent them back and they cupped them up a bit.
They were then at the top of the rev range when trimmed right out but were ok because as steel dev' said once you have small weed growth or are loaded then they will perform.

I found the top end only 2-3 knots higher on SS and also the standing start was simular...however the mid range punch was a lot more ,much more grip and she would leap from 15-30 knots much faster.

when i bought them i was understood to believe that a SS prop increases the revs by upto 200rpm as the prop is more effecient in the wtaer and also has more mass to spin so will spin faster

My current boat is under pitched slightly as it was set up for carrying load so i could go to 23" and maybe just nudge 50 knots but i run the prop that came with it 21.5 and hit 47 on my own but can still do 45 with 6 people in
good luck

__________________

Author Topic:   Will Stainless Steel Propellers Increase Boat Speed and Engine Speed Ernieh posted 08-07- 03:57 PM ET (US)         Hi. I [have] an Evinrude E-TEC 175-HP engine on a 18-foot 8-inch [non-Boston Whaler boat]. The top speed is 43-MPH. From what I'm hearing from others [the top speed of this non-Boston Whaler boat with an E-TEC 175-HP engine] should be about 50-MPH. [The engine speed of the E-TEC 175-HP] tops out at 5,300-RPM. The propeller is a 14.8 x 17 aluminum. [The boat manufacturer] said to get a 14.5 X 19 stainless steel, and that it will increase [boat] speed and [engine speed]. Is that correct? I thought higher pitch will decrease [engine speed]. I want to make sure before I purchase.

Thanks

jimh posted 08-07- 05:02 PM ET (US)             Typically, when the pitch of a propeller is increased the engine speed of the engine turning the propeller will tend to decrease. A common metric is that a 2-inch increase in pitch will produce about a 450-RPM decrease in engine speed.

With an engine of 175-HP and at boat speeds in the 40- to 50-MPH range, it is generally expected that a propeller made from stainless steel will produce better performance than a propeller made of aluminum.

Tohsgib posted 08-08- 11:06 AM ET (US)             How high are you trimming it out? Dropping to a 15 seems wrong for a 18' boat and 175hp. How high is engine mounted and how far are you trimmed out at WOT is my concern. What is redline? Ernieh posted 08-08- 12:33 PM ET (US)             Red line for RPM IS , gear ratio is 1.86:1
I didn't think it was right what they told me so I figured I would ask some experienced people.You guys have lots of great info on your forum. Trimmed out its 43 mph@ RPM . Boat is lbs.The motor is as low as it can go, (factory installed) I though if I could get the Rpms to about it would help. But like I say the manufacturer said to go to 14.5 x 19 instead of 14.8 x17.
Thanks for your help WisED posted 08-09- 01:29 AM ET (US)             I can't see why material should make a difference unless a specific material will let you make the propeller a more efficient "shape". Of course, a stainless steel propeller should be more durable since the metal is much stronger. Propellers with the same characteristics, diameter, pitch, etc should perform identically regardless of material. WisED posted 08-09- 01:32 AM ET (US)             Another point, If anything, a lighter material would be advantageous to performance, since rotational inertia would be smaller thus the engine would strain less to turn, all else being equal :) Tom W Clark posted 08-09- 09:13 AM ET (US)             I find it hard to believe a boat manufacturer would tell you to use a propeller of a certain diameter and pitch without also telling you exactly what model of propeller to use.

Propellers are not generic pieces of hardware defined by diameter and pitch; there is far more to it than that.

Usually, you will loose engine speed when increasing pitch. There is an inverse relationship between those two parameters. However, it is possible than a 19" pitch prop of one design may allow greater engine speed than the 17" pitch propeller you have now.

We need to know what boat you have, what propeller you are using now and what propeller the manufacturer is proposing. I mean brand, model and part number of the props, not just their diameter and pitch.

The answer the question posed in the topic title [ which I strongly suspect the author did not compose himself ], yes, usually a stainless steel propeller will increase boat speed and engine speed *if* it is selected and fitted wisely.

quote:Propellers with the same characteristics, diameter, pitch, etc should perform identically regardless of material.

That is not true for a number of reasons but mostly because there is no such thing as a stainless steel propeller that comes from the mold of an aluminum propeller.

Because stainless steel is five times a strong as aluminum, the blades are cast much thinner and can support much more complex shapes than aluminum.

Stainless steel propeller typically will support far more cupping and flex far less under load which changes how they make a boat perform.

It is telling that there are so many different models of stainless steel propellers, both from outboard motor manufacturers and the aftermarket, when so few aluminum propeller models are offered. Aluminum props still exist only to placate those who complain about costs. They are universally inferior to stainless steel vis-à-vis boat performance.

WisED posted 08-09- 10:43 AM ET (US)             Ergo if an aluminum prop were made to the same specs as a steel one it would perform the same. However due to differences in material strength they are not available to the same specs ;) My point was theoretical, what makes the difference is the shape of the screw not its material, however the material's characteristics dictate what screw shape is possible! Tohsgib posted 08-09- 11:10 AM ET (US)             Raising the engine would help dramatically. Jerry Townsend posted 08-09- 12:56 PM ET (US)             The material of a prop, given the same diameter, pitch and design will not make a difference, as WisED stated.

Well, except for the time when the engine speed is being increased - as stainless being heavier takes more energy to increase the rpm. But, at a given speed, material will not change the performance.

The only difference material makes is that stainless steel, being much stronger than aluminum, allows different design (cupping, et al). ---- Jerry/Idaho

WisED posted 08-09- 03:00 PM ET (US)             Maybe we have something here. Any material engineers on the board? Maybe we can come up with a lighter prop that can be shaped like a steel one! Sounds like there would be some money to be made! I'm also well aware that there are other much lighter and stronger steel alloys. A nitinol screw might be interesting (nickel titanum) stronger than steel impervious to corrosion, much lighter than stainless plus its memory characteristics might have some interesting applications. Price might be a problem though! Buckda posted 08-09- 03:32 PM ET (US)             Ed - Check out Mercury's ENERTIA propellers. Jerry Townsend posted 08-09- 03:38 PM ET (US)             WisED - there is one controlling element - price/cost that has to be considered - and might well be the controlling criterion. Titanium is indeed a super material, but extremely expensivel - so I doubt it would be considered.

But there are other real benefits from a lighter weight prop - as - in general, the lighter the material, the lesser the vibration from any unbalance. ---- Jerry/Idaho

face posted 08-09- 04:25 PM ET (US)             Jerry and WiseEd,

"The material of a prop, given the same diameter, pitch and design will not make a difference, as WisED stated. "

Not true, lighter aluminum props flex more and will not outperform an identical, yet heavier, stainless steel prop. Flexing of a prop blade wastes energy.

Secondly, I think you are too quick to jump to the conclusion that a lighter prop is assumed better. Heavier props with more mass might be stronger performers in sloppy seas as there rotational energy is harder to stop by turbulent water.

Lastly, while stainless steel props are heavier, they also allow for thinner blades (more efficient).
-Joe

Tom W Clark posted 08-09- 09:51 PM ET (US)            

quote:...if an aluminum prop were made to the same specs as a steel one it would perform the same.

No, that is not true, the blades will break off and the boat will not move.

Joe is correct on all points.

number9 posted 08-10- 01:55 AM ET (US)             The lighter same sized and shaped low cost prop has be available for years, plastic/composite. Tom W Clark posted 08-10- 09:20 AM ET (US)             Not true; there are no plastic propellers that are from the same mold as aluminum or stainless steel propellers.

Plastic propeller blades also bend easily so they do not perform the same as a stainless steel propeller.

Tohsgib posted 08-10- 11:43 AM ET (US)             Composite props suck for performance...absolutely horrible. sternorama posted 08-11- 06:21 PM ET (US)             Ernie-you mentioned "learning" from this site. Here is a pearl for you: everybody here might be right, but Mr. Clark is never wrong! Tom W Clark posted 08-11- 10:13 PM ET (US)             To be precise, I am only very rarely wrong.

;-)

Ernieh posted 08-13- 01:38 PM ET (US)             Thanks Guys ,

My prop is a OMC/Evinrude PART NUMBER . Nothing special. I do think I need a transom jacking plate and bring my motor up a notch from reading all the comments. Then try a few different props.
Your right about the dealers, their job is to sell. It's hard to find one with experience to get you set up properly from the start.
Tom seems to be the one to start his own business setting up boats and motors!He would have lots of customers. Funny with that one comment, My keychain for my boat says -I may not be right but I'm never wrong.

LATER

GrumpyRelic posted 08-21- 10:54 PM ET (US)             I agree with the discussion so far but there are two points that I would like to make.
1. If you live on a log infested river as I do, you would be much happier with an aluminum prop. Stainless props are so strong that they will quite often bend the lower unit prop shaft on striking a log. I for one am much happier with broken blades and a straight shaft.
2. While aluminum props do not offer as much performance, it is hard to justify a 10 fold increase in cost for 3 MPH more. Also Solas makes an aluminum propeller under high pressure which results in finer grain size, fewer inclusions and voids and a thinner blade. jimh posted 08-22- 09:30 AM ET (US)             Thanks for the information on the manufacturing technique used by SOLAS in fabricating their aluminum propellers. Tom W Clark posted 08-23- 09:07 AM ET (US)            

quote:If you live on a log infested river as I do, you would be much happier with an aluminum prop.

How is living on a log infested river different than living on a log infested estuary?

I live on a log infested estuary and have boated here for over 40 years and can tell you with some authority that you will be much happier if you boat with a stainless steel propeller for the following reasons:

1. You will not suffer bent and broken propeller blades at the same rate with a stainless steel propeller blades as with aluminum propeller blades. Stainless steel is five times as strong as aluminum, even Solas's aluminum.

2. You (and you family and/or guests) will be far less likely to be stranded because of a broken propeller blade.

3. Because you do not suffer bent and broken propeller blades at the same rate as with aluminum propellers, you will not spend as much money repairing bent and broken propeller blades, or simply replacing propellers.

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4. Your boat will perform better and get better fuel mileage saving you been more money.

Growing up, we ran aluminum props because they were cheap and they were (at the time) the state of the art; OMC's new SST had just come on the market. (The SST was the first widely popular stainless steel outboard propeller.)

I cannot tell you how many aluminum propellers we mangled hitting driftwood and logs. It takes very little to damage an aluminum propeller. They can be repaired if nicked and dinged, but it requires removing the prop and driving to a prop shop for repair. That gets very expensive.

It is also easy to break a blade off of an aluminum propeller. If that happens, throw it away and buy a new one. If that happens when you are are in a dicey situation, say near a rocky shore in rough seas with an onshore wind, you best issue a mayday,

No, I'll take a bent stainless steel blade over a missing aluminum propeller blade and motor out of it any day of the week.

An aluminum prop will be mangled just running across a sand bar where a stainless steel propeller will merely loose some of its shine.

The old wives tale about aluminum propellers "protecting your gearcase" is nonsense as well. Any impact strong enough to damage your gearcase will occur no matter what material your prop is made of. Bend and broken prop shafts do happen but not form hitting a log. Drive your boat onto solid rock and there's not much that will protect the motor.

In all my years of boating and ownership of over two dozen different outboards and sterndrives, I have damaged or ruined many aluminum propellers. The irony is that I bought my last aluminum prop back in the s and have used stainless steel propellers exclusively since then.

I have bent a stainless steel blade exactly once, five years ago. That prop strike occurred during a WOT test run here on Puget Sound, I hit a piece of driftwood at 45 MPH and bent a blade tip on a VenSura over about 90 degrees. No damage occurred tot he motor at all and the prop was easily repaired by my prop shop. and is running well today on a Bertram 25.

I have never suffered any damage to a gearcase or propeller shaft in spite of many more years of stainless steel propeller use.

Tom W Clark posted 08-23- 09:14 AM ET (US)            

quote:While aluminum props do not offer as much performance, it is hard to justify a 10 fold increase in cost for 3 MPH more.

Anybody who tells you a stainless steel propeller costs ten times as much as an aluminum propeller is ignorant.

The initial purchase cost of a stainless steel propeller is two to three times as much as an aluminum propeller, not ten times as much. But the operation cost of a stainless steel one is usually LESS than an aluminum prop because it will be so much more durable and your fuel economy will improve.

By the time you repair or replace your mangled aluminum prop a few times, you will not have saved any money at all.

Aluminum props offer one advantage only: a slightly lower initial purchase price. That is the only reason they still exist.

GrumpyRelic posted 09-07- 12:20 PM ET (US)             The ideal immersed prop for a boat is an airplane prop. Sadly that shape is not strong enough in water. So all small boat props have similar elephant ear shapes. They also do not have the airfoil shape as manufacturers are cheap and have opted for the ogival shape instead. Further, most aluminum props are die cast while stainless props are usually made by sand cast or lost wax process. I only know of one company who can machine from billet to finish product but you can't afford them. The die cast can be dimensionally more accurate in mass production. SS props are generally hand finished so you are at the mercy of Johnny the grinder's state of mind and experience. SS can also have voids and inclusions like cast aluminum. So, what other differences are there?
Obviously, the strength of the material (It does cost more to fix an SS prop)
There can be an issue of hydrogen embrittlement in the SS hub in salt water. This is why very few ships have SS props. They use bronze. Funny that this thread poohpoos "plastic". Many navies are testing carbon fiber props and results are very encouraging.
A hit on an aluminum prop will almost always leave a mark while SS props can be slightly bent and the damage will not be visible to the owner. Slightly bent props are not good for the bearings or seals. Your eye cannot be trusted. If for example, you were handed a variable pitch and a constant pitch prop of the same dia. and pitch you would not see any difference with your eye.
As I could not find an equivalent 4 blade in SS for my boat, I used my friend's prop as a cost comparison. (It turns out it was custom supplied) Here in Canada the cost factor is about four to one and not 10 as I had previously stated. Tom W Clark posted 09-12- 11:22 AM ET (US)            

quote:Funny that this thread poohpoos "plastic". Many navies are testing carbon fiber props and results are very encouraging

There are no Navies on the face of the Earth employing Piranha or ComProp plastic propellers for the same reason no Whaler owner should: They are cheap crap.

quote:Here in Canada the cost factor is about four to one...

No, the cost factor is exactly the same as in the US, about two or three to one. If you think otherwise, you do not know where to buy a propeller.

GrumpyRelic posted 09-14- 11:08 PM ET (US)             Mr. Clark,
You are probably right that no navies use Piranha or ComProp plastic propellers. However that is not what I said. If you read my comment with more care you will note that I spoke of carbon fiber propellers. These are currently being used on minesweepers and submarines where weight and non-ferous materials are a huge factor. Look up Contur props.

I looked up a 15 X 21 prop for a 4.3 Mercruiser. I did not pick the cheapest or the most expensive for either AL or SS.
I-Boats sell a Solas Amita (AL) for 108.99 I have to add 13% tax in Canada = $123.16.
They also sell a Solas Rubex for 384.98. Again 13% tax: = $435.03. That is 3.52 times more. I can also choose a cheaper AL prop at $97 and a more expensive SS one at $412. People tend to purchase cheap aluminum props when they are not interested in performance. Performance minded people are prepared to pay a lot more to be in the top 2% (Many people bought Ford Pintos but few bought Ferrari GT 250s)I stand by my 4:1 cost. Cheap SS props are just that - cheap.

Tom W Clark posted 09-19- 05:14 PM ET (US)             If you had read this thread with more care, you would have noted that the plastic propellers poohpooed in this thread are ComProp and Piranha brand props, not carbon fiber prototype propellers used by Minesweeper and Submarines. We discuss Boston Whalers here, not Minesweepers and Submarines used by Naval forces.

I strongly suspect that prototype carbon fiber propellers used by Minesweepers and Submarines will not work any better on my Boston Whaler than the crappy ComProp or Piranha brand plastic propellers but if the NAVY wants to develop a carbon fiber propeller for my 150 HP Mercury Outboards, I will be happy to test them and post the performance results here.

For your 4.3 MerCruiser, you could buy a 14 1/4" x 21" aluminum BlackMax for $180 or a 13-3/4" X 21" Vengeance for $500. That is a 2.78:1 ratio, not 4:1 or 10:1

These prices are shown here: http://www.mercurypartsexpress.com

Yes, a propeller may cost more in Canada than in the US, perhaps 13 percent more, but that does not change the ratio between the cost of an aluminum prop and a stainless steel one.

I'll let you in a little mathematical secret: Take the values of any ratio and multiply them by 13 percent because you live in Canada or percent because you live in Timbuktu, that ratio stays exactly the same.

Apply a discount on the list prices to get real-world street prices and the ratio is still the same.

I'll say it again: anybody who thinks a good stainless steel propeller needs to cost more than two or three times the cost of an aluminum prop does not know where to buy a good stainless steel propeller.

GrumpyRelic posted 09-20- 07:54 PM ET (US)             Mr. Clark,
No wonder you switched to stainless. You were paying $80 more for aluminum than I was. Tom W Clark posted 09-20- 08:23 PM ET (US)             Big difference between List Price and Street Price.

Since you brought it up, I have to wonder why you would pay $385 for a SOLADS Rubex when it can be had for only $311?

http://www.amazon.com/Solas-Rubex-Stainless-Steel-Blade/dp/B003C7QD8G/ ref=sr_1_1?s=gateway&ie=UTF8&qid=&sr=8-1

Or, more to the point, why you would even pay $311 when you can buy a Stiueltto Advantage 4.75 for only $225?

That Stiletto Advantage is only a little more than twice your aluminum prop, not ten times as much or even four times as much.

Hell, the $311 SOLAS Rubex is only 2.85 times as much as your $109 aluminum prop. Go ahead, ship it into Canada, it will still only be 2.85 times as much.

GrumpyRelic posted 09-20- 09:17 PM ET (US)             Mr. Clark,
May I remind you that YOU chose the $180 overpriced prop for comparison not me. I obviously wrongly assumed that we were talking retail prices from marine dealers and not a book store. Now you tell me that you get them on the "street" (probably from Guido) for much less. I hope that they aren't stolen. :) Tohsgib posted 09-20- 09:37 PM ET (US)             Grumpy I have bought 3 Stiletto props from Tom...$225 delivered to my door(5 years ago). If you are paying more, no wonder you are Grumpy. I will GLADLY give you my composite prop and race you ANY day of the year....THEY ARE JUNK...but good for a spare. Read the October Boating Mag and they talk about this saying composites are just a spare prop and should not be used for anything else. Tom W Clark posted 09-20- 10:30 PM ET (US)             Grumpy -- You needn't remind me of anything; you merely need to work on your reading comprehension. GrumpyRelic posted 09-21- 02:51 PM ET (US)             tohsgib,
1. I never said plastic was good for your applications. You totally dis them and yet you tell me that you would use one for a spare to get you home when you hit your good one. That means you don't trust your good one but would trust a plastic one with your life and boat because that is all you would have left. (I carry a spare identical to the one on my motor) Now, check the prop on your electric trolling motor.. Betcha it is plastic and you depend on that too. The composite propeller science is still in its infancy. Don't sell them short. People laughed at lasers because all it could do was to break a red balloon and now your government shoots down missiles with them.
Mr. Clark,
You have accused me of being ignorant and illiterate. When people run out of legitimate arguments, they start making personal attacks. Shame on you. Bozol posted 09-21- 04:52 PM ET (US)             I was in the market for a new stainless steel prop and went to three different dealers to scope prices and get advice. I live in the Canadian Arctic, where the people running these places have been doing it for decades - mom and pop type stuff. To a tee all of them said "why would you buy a stainless steel prop - they're just for show offs who like shiny things to impress their buddies". They told me almost consistently that stainless steel props do infact cause damage to boat legs - one dealer showed be a leg that had been knocked almost completely off that had been carrying a stainless steel prop. Sure, Tom, you're going to tell me quite rudely that my 'reading comprehension needs work' and say that 'it could have happened if he'd had an aluminium prop on as well' but seeing as these guys FIX BOATS for a living and consistently stated that SS props break engines, I tend to agree with them - they have just as much experience as you do individually and collectively way more. They just seemed to think that anybody buying ss props had more money than brains. GrumpyRelic posted 09-21- 05:53 PM ET (US)             Bozol,
We ran stainless hustlers on our RHIBs with Volvo diesels and we ran aluminum on the outboards - even in the Arctic. One prop didn't seem to last any longer than the other. I will say that we bought SS props by the pallet so they were nearly as cheap as Al for the RHIBs. One big problem was the prop nuts spinning off the Volvos - hit reverse and the prop was gone. I think that there was a problem with low temperature and shrinkage but we never had a bad nut to check. The main problem with the outboards was the oil injection. In 28 F. seawater and even colder air temperature, the oil wold get so thick that it wouldn't pump and the engine seized. Now we buy 4 cycle. Bozol posted 09-21- 06:09 PM ET (US)             I've never run when it's super cold outside - except on my snowmachine.

Last night I put a roughly 500lb cut up tree in my boat, plus gear, one other dude and my dog and my aluminium prop had me planing in no time :)

GrumpyRelic posted 09-21- 06:16 PM ET (US)             Bozol,
What's to worry... you had plenty of flotation material... Tom W Clark posted 09-21- 08:32 PM ET (US)             Bozol -- I haven't told you anything here, rudely or otherwise. Please do not put words in my mouth and I will extend to you the same courtesy.

quote:You have accused me of being ignorant and illiterate.

GrumpyRelic -- No, I did not. I also ask you to not put words in my mouth.

Please read this thread ab initio. It will save a lot of silly back and forth about who said what. It is all recorded above for all to read.

If you read this thread carefully, you will discover that the topic poses the question:

Will Stainless Steel Propellers Increase Boat Speed and Engine Speed?

The short answer is; [Yes.

The boat being discussed is an 18 foot Boston Whaler with a 175 HP outboard motor. This is a typical topic of discussion here at ContinuousWave where we discuss Boston Whalers and often their motors and performance.

We do not usually discuss mine sweepers, aircraft or prototype naval propellers. Please stop trying to change the topic. What material an electric trolling motor's propeller is made is also completely irrelevant to this discussion.

You have made some assertions that I have shown are false. Please introduce some new relevant evidence to support your arguments instead of changing the topic, making apples-to-oranges comparisons or resorting to an ad hominem attack on me.

GrumpyRelic posted 09-21- 09:18 PM ET (US)             "Anybody who tells you a stainless steel propeller costs ten times as much as an aluminum propeller is ignorant." Funny, I didn't see anyone else suggest the "ten times"

'Grumpy -- You needn't remind me of anything; you merely need to work on your reading comprehension."
That comment is quite succinct to me.

...and the correct answer is: It will speed up your boat and it may or may not speed up your motor.

Tom W Clark posted 09-21- 09:46 PM ET (US)             Well, you've got me there. That is a precisely accurate statement.

If you think a stainless steel prop is ten times as expensive as an aluminum prop, you're ignorant. Or at least you were. You've now been enlightened.

Russ 13 posted 09-22- 01:27 PM ET (US)             Speaking of enlightened....
I have found Stilletto props to perform great on Classic Whaler hulls, and they don't lighten up your wallet too much. Bozol posted 09-22- 01:39 PM ET (US)             Tom, based on reading other posts of yours I'm pretty sure I just beat you to the punch :)

Only a couple trips left to do up here - moose and goose hunting for the next couple weeks.

GrumpyRelic posted 09-22- 05:34 PM ET (US)             There was a 14 in. SS Spinelli prop for sale on Ebay last night that was at US$573 before I went to bed. It was a used prop as Spinelli closed years ago. I could never afford them new...

I think that the topic of this forum is not what the the person asking really needed to know. Stainless is only one of many aspects of choosing a prop. A stainless prop can either speed up or slow down your boat or motor. I think that an understanding of what you have before you start buying props is far more important. For example, did you know that before about the weight of the average 18 footer could vary as much as 100 lbs to the advertised weight of the boat. Is yours a heavy or a light one? Have you trued the bottom of the hull? Some boats are quite wonky. Does your engine really put out the rated HP? What is the gear ratio? Some manufacturers offer more than one gear set. Then, what do you want the boat to do? Just go fast? Have a great hole shot? Do you want more bow lift? What about control and some power in reverse? What about fuel economy? The design prop in a given family of quality props usually runs at nearly 80% efficiency. as you reduce the angle of attack, (lessen the pitch) it quickly drops off to 70% or less. So if you choose a lesser pitch than design you are throwing away efficiency. Your local sales rep should discuss this and more or you may end up badmouthing your ill-informed choice and be out some serious coin. The propeller is the least understood part of a powerboat and yet without it you would all be driving paddlewheels.

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